Tariffs, Deregulation & the Energy Reset | The Crude Truth Ep 131 Sarah Falen Tate & Dr. Ed Ireland
In this episode of The Crude Truth, host Rey Treviño III sits down for an insightful interview with economic genius Dr. Ed Ireland and Sarah Falen Tate. Together, they break down the major shifts in America’s economy, energy policy, and agriculture. We are seeing the trade deals moving forward, and the stock market is reacting positively. President Trump has huge trade wins with Saudi Arabia and is off to other Middle Eastern countries for more trade talks. The stabilization in Syria is enormous, which will play a role in the global stabilization of trade.
There is a major misunderstanding of the tariffs’ impact. Are they good, bad, or who are they impacting?
- What does the end of 50 years of NEPA regulations mean? Advising the President as a job description does not mean writing horrible regulations.
- How are tariffs impacting U.S. commodities and ranchers?
- Is deregulation helping or hurting the energy sector?
- Who really owns underground CO₂ storage rights?
- Why is now a turning point for oil, gas, and agriculture?
All of my guests’ points are critical to the entire United States agriculture and oil markets. Not only is agriculture one of the biggest users of diesel and fertilizer made from natural gas, but it is also becoming more available in international trade deals. Things are changing in the world, and the United States’ oil, gas, and agriculture markets are at the forefront of these critical changes.
Whether you’re in oil & gas, farming, or just trying to understand what’s really going on with the economy this episode delivers real talk with real experts.
Don’t miss the insights from two industry leaders helping shape the future of American energy.
A special thank you to Sarah and Ed for stopping by my podcast. I learned a lot and had an absolute blast- Rey.
Highlights of the Podcast
00:00 – Opening Remarks & Guest Introductions
02:25 – Sarah Tate’s Update
05:30 – Economic Shifts and Energy Realignment
08:00 – Dismantling the CEQ’s Regulatory Authority
12:49 – Impacts of Deregulation
15:34 – Tariffs and Agricultural Concerns
21:19 – Global Tariff Strategy & Economic Power
26:08 – Carbon Storage & Land Rights in Wyoming
32:53 – Federal Mineral Ownership and Policy Shifts
36:47 – Final Thoughts from Dr. Ireland
39:35 – Final Thoughts from Sarah Tate
42:17 – Closing Remarks & Appreciation
Please reach out to Sarah Falen Tate on LinkedIn
Please reach out to Dr. Ed Ireland on Linkedin
We want to thank our sponsors of THE CRUDE TRUTH.
Tariffs, Deregulation & the Energy Reset | The Crude Truth Ep 131 Sarah Falen Tate & Dr. Ed Ireland
Video Transcription edited for grammar. We disavow any errors unless they make us look better or smarter.
Rey Treviño III [00:00:00] GDP equals C plus I plus G. What is that? We talked to two experts in energy and agriculture that really wanna discuss and break down the crude truth on the tariffs and what’s gonna happen next on this episode of The Crude Truth.
Narrator [00:00:18] In 1901, at Spindletop Hill near Beaumont, the future of Texas changed dramatically, as, like a fountain of fortune, thousands of barrels of oil burst from the earth towards the sky. Soon Detroit would be cranking out Model Ts by the millions, and America was on the move, thanks to the black gold being produced in Texas. Now, more than a century later, the vehicles are different, but nothing else has truly changed. Sure there may be many other alternative energy sources like wind and solar and electric. But let’s be honest, America depends on oil and entrepreneurs, and if the USA is truly going to be independent, it has to know the crude truth.
Narrator [00:01:01] This episode is brought to you by LFS chemistry. We are committed to being good stewards of the environment. We are providing the tools so you can be too. Nape Expo, where deals happen. Air Compressor Solutions. When everything is on the line, Air Compression Solutions is the dependable choice to keep commercial business powered up. Sandstone Group, Exec Crue. Elevate your network, elevate your knowledge. Texas Star Alliance, Pecos Country Operating, fueling our future.
Rey Treviño III [00:01:36] Well, thank you as always and tune in for another episode of The Crude Truth. This is just a wild time in the economy as we record today. I’m gonna do my best to be getting this one out as quickly as possible because. News happens at the pace of news and everything’s going on and it couldn’t happen at a better time because i have on two returning guests that almost both of them now could be co-hosts at the same time two industry leaders two individuals that are understanding the commodities what’s going on with agriculture and how energy is affecting it and how the two collide help each other out and not help each other out my guests today are the one the only Sarah Tate and Dr. Ed Ireland. Guys, how are y’all?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:02:21] Great, thank you so much for having me.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:02:23] Oh, great. Great to be back.
Rey Treviño III [00:02:25] Well, it’s great to have you both back on. And we’ve already been talking for an hour at post-production or pre-production, just about everything that’s going on. Um, Sarah, for everybody out there, um, first of all, congratulations again, uh, for those that out there that don’t know you are 20, 24, uh 30 under 30 in the agriculture world with the cowgirl magazine. And that’s what brings you back to Fort Worth again this year, uh for that same event and as I was saying. What a perfect time to be back because of everything that’s going on with the tariffs, with OPEC, and really where the state of the economy is right now. How are you doing?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:03:03] I’m doing great. It’s a really interesting time to be an attorney because there’s a lot of unprecedented things happening and so it’s very exciting to get to see how things are unfolding and continue to use my background to try to predict what’s happening next.
Rey Treviño III [00:03:20] But you talk about that, since last year, you have been on a whirlwind. I mean, let’s just talk about that just for a brief second here. I mean what have you been up to? You’ve been up too a lot.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:03:30] Yes, I had a baby four and a half months ago. And so I’ve been my first child. And so I have been learning how to be a mom while getting back into working. I took a couple of months off. I’m teaching at the University of Wyoming again this semester. And all of those things have certainly kept me very busy. I moved into town. I had been living in a camper trailer in the middle of one of our cow pastures. And adjusting to living in town has. Definitely also kept me very busy.
Rey Treviño III [00:04:01] Well, you know, I was joking and saying, well, with you and your husband, as often as y’all been to the great state of Texas in the last year, y’al may just need to start finding some real estate here, you know, and we could use the help of sure, especially from an agriculture standpoint.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:04:15] Well, you know, I think that my dad would be a little disappointed if we got a ranch down here and quit helping him in Wyoming. But we did have some longhorn calves. We had a longhorn bull get in with our cows this year. And so we have some Longhorn calves that would fit in in this state perfectly.
Rey Treviño III [00:04:33] Now, when you say get in, did it get in on purpose or by accident?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:04:36] It was on accident. We do not run longhorns.
Rey Treviño III [00:04:40] You don’t want to start any big things
Sarah Falen Tate [00:04:42] with the big horns. No, that’s not really what we do on our ranch. So, but we can start those down here.
Rey Treviño III [00:04:52] So did you find out whose it is?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:04:55] Yeah, so we actually found out it was a longhorn bull and a Holstein bull, which for those who don’t know, that’s a milk cow, got in to our pasture from a-
Rey Treviño III [00:05:03] Or one that’s bold.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:05:06] No, one longhorn and one Holstein from a subdivision that’s near some ground that we lease got into our pasture and bred several of our cows. So we haven’t had any Holstein calves yet, little milk cow crosses. We haven’t we haven’t had any of those yet, but we’ve definitely had some longhorns
Rey Treviño III [00:05:28] No. Oh, my gosh.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:05:30] So those fit in down here a lot better than they fit in in Wyoming.
Rey Treviño III [00:05:35] And Dr. Ireland, how are you doing, sir?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:05:37] Great, thanks.
Rey Treviño III [00:05:38] It could be a better time with you having your background in economics. What I asked you to be honest, when Sarah told me she was coming back into town, I was like, oh, I want to have you on at the same time. And in our pre-production meeting, it’s already been going great. I mean, I knew that it would be right there just like last time when I had Dr.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:05:57] We have plenty to talk about.
Rey Treviño III [00:05:58] We do. How are you doing?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:05:59] Doing great.
Rey Treviño III [00:06:00] Yeah. Yeah, what are you thinking about the whole economy right now?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:06:04] It’s all exciting. Everything’s changing, and that’s good. I think there’s a lot that needs to be changed, but especially on the energy side. And it couldn’t be a more exciting time now in the energy business and just for the economy and the importance of energy, it’s really changing quickly and it needed to be change. We were way off in the weeds in this country. Well, most of the world is too, and still is, on how economies need to be powered. And we got all into this wind and solar thing and de-emphasizing fossil fuels. And the world has been discovering that that doesn’t really work. Power grids especially don’t work with wind and solar. There can be some, but they can’t be all unless you want to do everything during the day when the sun is shining. Solar power doesn’t work very good at night. So all of that was being discovered already, or I’d say the reality of it was sinking in when President Trump was elected and really… Codified all of that into executive orders, and now that’s being further codified into the energy department and really all of the departments in the federal government. And so it’s a massive change that was needed.
Rey Treviño III [00:07:41] You know, you mentioned two things there that I want to talk about, and they’re kind of separate, which is one is the executive orders. And then also what’s going on with the departments and everything that’s going. And I guess we’ll start there because, you know, on my teaser, I used your little mathematical equation GDP equals C plus I plus G, which is Gross domestic production is equal to consumption. Investment, and government.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:08:13] Right, just as a simple way of representing.
Rey Treviño III [00:08:15] Right. And, you know, Sarah said something very, very awesome also during the beginning in our meeting. And it was like, Oh, wow, it really helps. Because, because that’s when you said that part, which was you said, it’s a real interesting time right now to see what’s going on, because there’s so much deregulation going on. But also, there’s there’s many people that are getting let go from government entities right now. And You mentioned, one of the first things I asked you was, hey, what do you want to talk about? And you’re like, oh, well, let me tell you about this, where it’s now getting better. So can we talk about that entity and also what you’re seeing here, what’s happening, why it’s concerning that we’re letting all these people go, even though we probably all are okay with it.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:09:00] Sure. So as far as executive agencies go, most of them are created by one law or another. And the National Environmental Policy Act, or NEPA, is a law that really impacts all energy industries, all agriculture industries, anything that has to do with federal land or federal money, even just one federal dollar, federal permit, you have to go through what’s called the NEPA process. Which is an environmental process where an industry, if you’re starting a project, you have to figure out what kind of an environmental impact that project is going to have on the environment. And the regulatory agency that had been writing regulations for that is called the Council on Environmental Quality. And the CEQ was given its authority through NEPA. And in NEPA, it actually says that the CEQ is supposed to advise the president on various environmental policies. So everybody had just assumed that that meant that they had the authority to be writing regulations. And so regulations are supposed to be clarifying laws. And so the CEU has been writing regulations since the 1970s. And a court last year decided that the CEQ did not have any authority to be writing regulations. And following that on one of his first days in office, President Trump wrote an executive order directing the CE Q to completely get rid of all of its regulations. None of them are valid anymore. So 50 years of regulations just went away. Whoa. And that’s. A really big deal and is going to have really big impacts on how NEPA is implemented, which certainly from, you know, in the West has a really, really big impact, but also in Eastern States, because if you have to get a, you know, a federal permit or use any federal dollars at all, you have to go through the NEPPA process. And so it’s, it’s having huge impacts.
Rey Treviño III [00:11:14] Wow, where are some places right now that you’re seeing like these impacts that are going on?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:11:19] So it’s so new. It’s just, so when President Trump wrote his executive order, he gave the CEQ, I think it was 60 days or maybe it was 45 days, something like that, um, to get rid of all of their regulations. And so that change just happened a couple of weeks ago. And so I have not seen any direct impacts yet, but it’s absolutely going because now, um, NEPA… Is also has to work with other agencies. So the Bureau of Land Management or the Fish and Wildlife Service, or the Federal Energy Commission, whatever, has to go through the NEPA process. And so now, instead of having one entity that’s writing regulations, whoever is doing the project has to go through whatever agency they’re working with. So if it’s an energy project and they have to talk to FERC. They have to follow FERC regulations. But then if they’re doing a project on federal lands and are working with the BLM, they have go through BLM regulations. So on one hand, you know, it has decentralized the CEQ. But now instead of having one entity that’s writing regulations that have to be followed, projects have to go to individual agencies that can have all different regulations. And so there’s less government, but it’s. Very possibly going to be more complicated because instead of having one agency, you have all of the agencies. They get to write regulations.
Rey Treviño III [00:12:49] You would never kind of think about that, that less government, more government is more complicated, but in this scenario, they’re quite the opposite. With all this deregulation going on right now, Dr. Arlen, it’s on the energy side, it is on the agriculture side, and it’s affecting us all for the most part as industry individuals in agriculture, ranching, oil and gas in a positive way as far as the deregulations go. What are you seeing though, would you say that’s true or do you think that we’re actually seeing some things from the economy that deregulating is not helping us out right For the economy standpoint.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:13:28] One of president’s main promises was to deregulate. I don’t remember the number he ended up with but he was going to for every, he was gonna eliminate 10 for every one they write or something like that. So I don’ know how that will be counted exactly but the whole point was deregulation. And it’s very important because all regulations have costs. No matter how minor they may appear. There is a cost involved in that regulation. If nothing else, it’s just proving that you’re complying with the regulation. And compliance costs are a tremendous cost in the economy. And really, they’re a wasted cost, so to speak. You’re just complying with a regulation that may not even have any positive impact. It’s just a regulation that’s been around forever. And so the whole idea of deregulating. I mean, as a free market economist that I am, that’s one of the best things that can be done to help this economy is deregulate and reduce all of those costs and misallocation of resources that comes from it. Because not all regulations were written. I mean a lot of regulations were written with a certain group in mind. In other words, they were one-sided, not necessarily. A regulation that would improve the economy or make the economy work better. It was just something that was politically expeditious at the time. And then these regulations get piled on top of regulations. I’ve seen the statement that we all are guilty of violating some regulation or many, perhaps many regulations every day. We all violate them because we don’t even know what they are There are so many and so it’s very inefficient and very costly and so getting rid of regulations is a great step in every way.
Rey Treviño III [00:15:34] Even though right now the economy is just, I mean, you know, I get asked that question a lot right now. I was like, is the economy bad? And I really don’t know the answer. I used to say I’ve never seen an economy like this before. But with all the deregulation that’s going on, we also have OPEC doing what they’re doing on the only gas and energy side. But we also have all these tariffs. And I saw a funny joke the other day. I do want to talk about tariffs and how they’re affected by it. I didn’t see a funny joke where they were like. Never knew we had so many tariff experts out there, you know, because all of a sudden, right, we have them and now everybody has something to say about them. But I want to talk about just from an effective standpoint. You know, Sarah, again, in our pre-production meeting, I was like, well, what do you see going on with the tariffs? And how are they affecting you guys with the ranching and the agriculture side of things? And, you, know, that was a very great conversation. And so it’s like, do you think it’s a good thing right now? And are you all going to see any effects, especially from the cattle industry, which is huge?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:16:33] Absolutely. I think a lot of people are very nervous about how the tariffs are going to impact the cost of goods. And so as we had been talking about the cattle market had been the highest that it’s ever been. And then in the last couple of weeks, it’s been free falling. And I am not an economist. But I think that a lot of people have changed their spending habits right now. In anticipation of what’s going to happen with commodities. And so a lot of agriculture producers, while generally being very favorable of President Trump, in general most agriculturalists are Um, are a little nervous about what happens if other countries. Slow down their purchase of the United States agriculture commodities because in agriculture we are not price makers we’re price takers and so whatever the consumer is willing to purchase a product at we have to sell it for and at the same time all of our inputs we also don’t have any control and how much we can spend on inputs you know the cost of diesel the cost of equipment a fertilizer etc we don’t have any Control over those prices and so agriculture is really a middle man that. That has to bend at the whim of the economy.
Rey Treviño III [00:17:48] I see you over here nodding your head and agreeing over here, Dr. Ireland, all the way.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:17:52] Well, I think President Trump extols the virtues of tariffs all the time, and he’s made references to say, well, we could eliminate personal income taxes just by raising our tariff. But in the end, I thing what he has said that really is where he’s working toward is that the best tariffs are no tariffs. And it’s We don’t want tariff you if you won’t tariff us. And that is the most economically efficient situation to be in. But what had happened over time is the rest of the world were tariffing, imposing tariffs on U.S. Goods and we were not imposing tariffs on their goods. I mean, it’s just like automobiles. I think our average tariff is somewhere around 2%. And for imported cars, German cars, Italian cars, whatever, whereas the average tariff on US made cars into most countries is 20% or higher. And so just one case, someone the other day said, go to Japan. You will not see an American car at all. And what about Japanese cars in the US? Lots of them. Lots of German cars. And that’s a lot of it is just tariffs. And so ideally, we all just get rid of tariffs. It’s like, if you’re gonna be 10%, we’ll be at 10%. Or then you say, well, if we’re gonna do that, let’s just be at zero. Isn’t that the same, isn’t that better? And so I think that’s where it’s working too. But you only get there with some really shrewd negotiation and a pretty big hammer. Claiming, I’m gonna use this hammer on you if you don’t play this game. With us and reduce tariffs against U.S. Goods. I think that’s where it’s headed, but it’s very destabilizing. As you can see in the market, 3,000 point swings in one day because the market’s very nervous about where this is going to end up. Are we going to tear our tariff ourselves into not being able to sell U. S. Goods? And I don’t think that is where it is headed at all.
Rey Treviño III [00:20:13] You know, when we talk about the terrace and you said that the ranch, the beef market was at the highest it ever been. Are y’all concerned about the drop or are you kind of seeing this as a reset when it comes to the price of beef?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:20:29] I think ultimately it is going to be a reset. The problem that you run into in agriculture and specifically really across all commodities but really in the cattle industry is we only get paid once a year. A lot of cattle producers, when you sell your cattle that you get your big check and then you have to make that last all year. We don’t get paid every two weeks like a lot of other jobs do. And so. If the market falls enough that you can’t make it to the next year, you run out of money, then a lot of people are going to go out of business. And so while ultimately, I think that it is going to be a reset, it’s very daunting in industries where you have to make it a whole year off of off of one check, how long is it going to take before we’re actually reset?
Rey Treviño III [00:21:19] Wow. That’s tough. And with that being said, with the way the markets are and these tariffs, I just want to know, where do you see this going? I mean, do you think it’ll be long-term? That’s kind of a question for both of y’all. Dr. Allen, do want to go first? And if I may, you keep saying you’re not an economic expert, but the expert is not in his head all the time agreeing with So, I think you know it. Oh, yeah. Let’s do it.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:21:46] That’s very reassuring.
Rey Treviño III [00:21:49] What do you think, doctor Ireland?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:21:51] The tariffs are headed, is that the question? I think they’re headed to zero. And some countries are not going to go to zero, but then we will not go to 0 either. So there again, it’s the negotiation. And I really do think the Trump’s target is to get to zero tariffs. I mean, he’s alluded to the fact that before the income tax, which was in the early 1900s, the country operated on tariffs. The United States got money, but that was a different world. And now we trade freely with the whole world, but that has not been free. That’s the goal, but it’s been very much one sided against the United states up to this point, because just our history has been, presidents have allowed all of these tariffs to be piled on, on U.S. Goods. And by the way, that really started as a way for the United States to help the world rebuild after World War II. That’s where we’re saying, okay, we’ll let you tariff US goods as a source of income for you, and we won’t tariff your goods in order to kind of give you a little boost to help rebuild after World war II. And that just continued to continue. For years, you know, for decades up until now. So we were almost like Santa Claus. Very much so.
Rey Treviño III [00:23:26] I mean, you know, my dad always jokes that, you know, when you go out and you might have one or two more to win the next thing you know your Santa Claus just, you know, buying stuff for everybody and are and so the moment we became a superpower, which was after World War Two, we were like, hey, you don’t help you out. I was because I was really kind of going to ask you that question. Like when did this whole thing start?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:23:45] That’s when it started and Trump’s been, President Trump has been repeating the number the last few days that we’ve lost, the United States has lost 90,000 factories, 90,00 companies, factories that manufacture stuff in this country just in the last decade. And that’s significant. Yeah. And that’s why we’ve, you know, the rust belt, as they call it, is that for a reason. It’s been rusting over time because we’ve got a steel business, our autos are not traded around the world, not sold around the world, and just on and on. So it’s been very one-sided, and I think President Trump decided that is one of his legacies that he’s going to be sure he changes, is that U.S. Is going to be a manufacturing powerhouse.
Rey Treviño III [00:24:40] You know, one other thing that you said that I want to highlight it was that because you’re talking about being a powerhouse and it’s because sometimes people say that we’re not and that our economy is in place. And you said in our pre-production media, which was no country can live or sustain without the United States economy. I want say that what we’re telling you, no country can sustain without United States’ economy. What did you mean by that?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:25:04] Well, we’re the largest GDP country in the world, and so we’re the largest market, generally, in the world. And so all countries need the United States. France needs the United States to sell wine, too, and just go down the list. We’re the biggest market in the world. And of course, China. China sells to a lot of countries in the But you they could not survive without selling to the United States. And so the whole idea that China came back and retaliated against Trump said, well, if you’re going to do that, we’re going do this. And he said, oh, yeah, well I’ll triple that. Now what are you going to? No, no, I think it’s a hundred and twenty five percent tariff now that maybe it’s higher that he says he’s imposing on Chinese goods. Well, that kills it. I mean, China would not cannot exist. And so. They will back off of that. Trump will win that argument with China, you watch.
Rey Treviño III [00:26:08] Gee, he’s seeing it like with a definitive there. You know,
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:26:13] They need us. China needs us more than we need China.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:26:20] That reminds me, I think it’s a quote from, I want to say Teddy Roosevelt. And he said that as a president, you should speak softly, but carry a big stick. President Trump carries a big stake and also talks very loudly. So I think, I mean, other countries will listen to him too.
Rey Treviño III [00:26:37] Well, and I think right now, unfortunately, we need that in some ways. He’s got four years and he’s not trying to win. I mean, I love Howard the other day he messed around talking about, oh, yeah, maybe I could run for a third time. I’m sure and he goes, I’m Sure this way my team can figure it out as if his teams really is but you know, he’s running again. And so yeah, he is it’s almost like we’re doing a reset and it kind of like you’re talking about with the price of cattle. Or beef as they call it. Did you watch that one Saturday Night Live skit where the guy talks about cows? He goes, no, we’ll call them cows. But when we sell them, we call it beef and then we’ll make hamburgers out of it. Do you see that one? No, I didn’t. Oh yeah. It goes, well, shall we sell him beef? Say it once again. No, we will call them hamburgs. That’s a side note. I’ll have to send it to you. But I want to switch gears. I had a chance actually to visit with the governor of Wyoming a couple of months ago. He was down at NAPE and he was on a panel there and you know they’re definitely trying to get more friendly with bringing more oil and gas operators to the state to drill more oil wells. Um, and one thing that I wanted to kind of ask you about is What’s going on on y’all’s end because a lot of Wyoming is part of the blm, which is the bureau of land management So that’s who actually owns the mineral rights, but yet the surface rights are something that that you know, everybody, you know Typically, that’s what you buy Right. And so with everything going on over there What are you seeing because I know we kind of talked about it that you know, there’s one rumor that trump may try to give back the royalties back to the states or actually back to the royalty owners in some form or fashion, but also there’s a big thing going on right now with the CO2 and trying to find places in Wyoming that have a place to put CO2 for storage. You know, what are you hearing about all that?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:28:28] So as far as the CO2 for storage, there’s poor space in the earth. So under the surface, it’s not solid ground. There’s cavities within the earth where there’s just nothing exists. Right. And a court determined that the surface owner is the one who owns the poor space. And so we’ve been negotiating leases. With pore space. So if a company who has CO2 as a product can talk to a landowner and say, you know, we’ve done these studies, you have this much pore space, and the landowners can be paid to use that pore space and so that’s one way that we’ve really seen that. And as we kind of talked about earlier with, you know pore space you have to have a way to get it there which means more, more pipelines and. And things of that nature. And so I think that our governor, that he, I would assume, you know, obviously I don’t want to put words into his mouth, but I would assume that he would want to kind of walk the line of wanting these projects in our state, but also wanting to make sure that landowners are treated. Fairly, I guess, for lack of a better word. A lot of landowners are very pro-project, but don’t necessarily want the project in their backyard, but it’s got to go in somebody’s backyard. And so we see a lot of conflicts in a lot of the Western states, a lot in North Dakota, Montana, where there’s a lot oil and gas production. A lot of conflicts between landowners and industry over, you know, where these pipelines go, where the industry goes, because everybody can agree that we need these projects, we need energy, etc. But where the projects are actually located is a pretty big topic of controversy.
Rey Treviño III [00:30:26] You know, when you talk about the poorest and you say that the courts cited that the land owners own that, that’s a big deal because it is underground.
Rey Treviño III [00:30:36] And here in Texas, we all own our own minerals, or not we all, but a lot of basically the state individuals own the minerals. So in Wyoming, for that to come down is a pretty big deal. Do you think it would have been like that if Wyoming wasn’t a BLM? Do you think they would have probably sided with the mineral owners and not the surface owner? Just totally random, kind of just throwing me a random question.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:31:03] Um, I think it’s, it’s hard to say because, um, there are, you know, so, you know, the, the minerals and you know the surface are, are separately the split state, but things like gravel, a lot of times are owned by the surface owner and that can be, you know, you dig down and that’s like underground too, but you know obviously oil and gasses is, you And so it. It’s really hard to say because it depends on what you’re looking at. Just because it’s underground doesn’t necessarily mean it’s part of the mineral estate.
Rey Treviño III [00:31:36] Well, again, I know that was totally a random question there, and it’s a what if, and it is hypothetical. So I just kind of curious, because that’s what I was thinking about after we discussed. I was like, you know, that’s real interesting that they did that. And it’s like, well, Wyoming doesn’t own, or the state or the federal government owns the minerals. So maybe, so it definitely was a big win for the landowner.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:31:56] Well, and the reason there are some people who do own minerals in Western states, but the reason that the federal government owns so many of the minerals is because, you know, and here in Texas in these Eastern states, it’s just very different because the federal government had owned all of the West and then they were, through the Homesteading and through a couple of other laws, were giving parcels to. You know, they were selling parcels to the state or to individuals, to the railroad. But as they were getting rid of the land, they reserved their mineral rights. And so that’s why the federal government owns so many minerals, is it’s not necessarily because they own, you know, the lands. It’s even when they were telling those lands, they still retained the minerals because the federal governments, I guess, knew that that’s a very valuable resource to have.
Rey Treviño III [00:32:53] Yeah, I know. Sometimes I wonder about the foresight because here in Texas, Dr. I don’t correct me if I’m wrong, the second president when we were our own state was Lamar. And if I am correct, he did something with the school endowment with the minerals. And this was like in 1839 or something. And because of that, I mean, the Texas college endowment is ridiculous because of the minerals, is that correct?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:33:23] And I mean,
Rey Treviño III [00:33:25] And yeah, A&M, yeah. And so it’s just kind of funny that the federal government was doing the same thing in the 1800s. Like, we’re gonna hold onto these minerals just in case. Like, how would you know? Because we didn’t know about oil from that standpoint at that time. Totally off there, sorry. But Dr. Ireland, another thing about Wyoming and you mentioned it was that the Trumper and all them kind of were looking at maybe bringing back that to. Individuals to own and that would be a trillion and it’s not like one or two trillion, right?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:33:56] Well, President Trump has indicated that he leans toward the idea of, if not giving that land back to individuals, also including the mineral rights. And I don’t know where that stands, but that certainly was something he’s talked about. And as a huge wealth, 150 trillion, I think that’s just maybe in the West or part of the way it’s done. So, I mean, we’re talking really huge numbers in value, but of course, how you go about reversing really the history of the United States in terms of all the mineral rights and surface rights, that’s a pretty big project. So we’ll see if that can get done in the next four years.
Rey Treviño III [00:34:46] It’d be, it’d be interesting. I mean, it would be, dare I say, unprecedented. And, uh, you know, I know Sarah said this and, uh mean, I just want to highlight what people said and, is that if anybody would do it, it probably be president Trump. I remember you said that like, well, if anybody can do it to be president.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:35:03] Absolutely. Well, I think the perfect example of that is earlier when I was talking about the CEQ, who would have thought that we would have a president that just unilaterally decided to cut all of the authority of a whole agency? And so I do think that if something like that was going to happen, it would be under President Trump. But it’s really interesting because last Um, the state of Utah, um, petitioned to the U S Supreme court to take up a case where they were asking for the federal government to sell back the unappropriated federal lands. And so unappropriate federal lands are ones owned by the BLM. And it was 18.5 million acres that Utah was asking to be put back in control of the state. Um, and so it would be interesting to see if Trump had indicated that he was in favor of that, you know, before or after this lawsuit. End. Or after this petition, the Supreme Court did not take up the lawsuit. A lot of people are speculating that Utah is going to try something similar to try to get a decision like that made again, but I’m wondering if that is why President Trump said that he would be interested in that. I wonder. It would have huge impacts on everything in the West. It’s almost even hard to imagine that how huge those impacts would actually be on every industry in the West.
Rey Treviño III [00:36:30] Well, Dr. Ireland, as we’re kind of getting to the time here, I want to give you just the platform for a minute. You’ve got a great substack. You know, what have you been seeing in the markets? What have you’ve been seeing and in the energy space? Just kind of the last minute thing here on a final word from you and how people can get in contact, you know, what are you seeing?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:36:47] Well, a lot of it is what is going on with President Trump and his whole approach to energy, which is, you know, pretty much you think about the world for the last 10 years or more has been moving in this anti-fossil fuel way. Right. And so coal was all the regulations were against coal. And the whole idea, notion that we’ve all been living with is that coal is especially bad and you’ve got to stop using coal completely. And then the next thing was oil and natural gas. And somehow we’re going to operate the economy on wind and solar, of course, which is a ridiculous idea because wind and soil requires oil and gas Make the machines, the solar panels and the wind turbines. So it was a ridiculous way that we had moved in the world. And Trump just changed that overnight. I mean, it was, I guess it’s now just yesterday, he signed the order on coal to say, we’re going to start using coal again. We’re That’s good news for the areas, especially in the west.
Rey Treviño III [00:38:15] I was about to say, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:38:17] One is very high quality State.
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:38:20] You know, our coal industry was not shut down, we still were exporting a lot of coal. And that’ll continue, maybe on steroids now. But also, Trump has said he wants these coal-fired electricity-generating plants to reopen. That’s not as easy done as said, because a lot those are closed-mouth balls, junked. They can’t be reopened as such, they’d have to be rebuilt. So that’s a whole different problem, but I think the reset on the energy side that President Trump has done in less than 90 days is unbelievable, that we’ve gone from somehow we have to stop using fossil fuels to all fossil fuels are great. And I never deviated from that So if you read my Substack at EdIreland.substack.com You will see, I’ve written hundreds of articles saying we need all the energy we can get, all forms are good, and that’s just been my background. So that’s what you’ll read on my substack.
Rey Treviño III [00:39:35] Are you gonna be teaching back in the fall?
Dr. Ed Ireland [00:39:38] Perhaps, in the spring for sure. In the spring, okay. It just depends on how the schedule. Energy and entrepreneurship at the great TCU. That’s at TCU in the Neely School of Business, but I teach energy courses to both graduate and undergraduate.
Rey Treviño III [00:39:53] Sarah, I want to kind of give you the same platform as we wind up wrapping up today. It’s like, what are you seeing? What are you excited about? Why is Texas the favorite state in the world? But, you know, and tell us in the course how people can get a hold, find you and continue there.
Sarah Falen Tate [00:40:10] Sure. I’m really excited to just see how deregulation continues throughout President Trump’s administration. Generally, I am a huge advocate for deregulated and less centralized government. One of the things that I think is really interesting that we’ll have to see how it impacts different states is when you’re from a state like we had talked about this briefly, when you are from a State like Wyoming or Texas, we’re generally very in favor of our states being able to. Regulate and make more rules. But if you are from an industry and you’re in a state like California, Oregon, Washington, those states are not in favor of their state governments running their industry because a lot of times the federal government is more reasonable than the state of California. And so I think it’ll be really interesting to see not only how deregulation impacts. Um you know my industries in Wyoming but to see how those same industries the cattle industry and other agriculture industries are impacted in states like uh California um because when you have decentralized government you have more um different rules you know coming from each different state so I think it’ll be really interesting to see I also think it will be It’s interesting to see how. States like California that have requirements for a certain percentage of their energy has to come from renewables, I think it will be interesting to see if it is so much cheaper to get energy from coal and into fossil fuels that see if they back off on that a little bit because they use a tremendous amount of energy. And so I think all of that is very exciting to see. How it’ll change. And I’m on Facebook, Instagram, under my name, Sarah Falen Tate, and so I try to keep up with various legal news on my social media.
Rey Treviño III [00:42:03] You’ve always done a great job at that and are you gonna be you’re teaching right now as well correct?
Sarah Falen Tate [00:42:08] I am, I’m teaching agriculture law at the University of Wyoming, and in the fall I’ll teach agriculture law and also a regulatory and policy class.
Rey Treviño III [00:42:17] And what I think is neat about both of y’all, you’ve heard me say this before, is, I don’t know if you have, is that y’act, y’y’all do. Y’all aren’t teachers. Y’yall are sharing your knowledge with students of your everyday experience. And that, in my opinion, changes the game when you have somebody sitting down talking to them because you guys live it, breathe it, and then y’alls acknowledge back to the others. And that’s what makes you too. True beyond educators, just two people that are just sharing their knowledge with others. So I can’t thank y’all enough. I also want to say this on a fun note. I think this is both y’alls third time on the show. I am going to do something for five timers like the Saturday Night Live. I guess we’ll talk about it. So hopefully one day we’ll get y’al on again and They’ll be both those fifth time on the show, whether it’s in person or on a. On Zoom, and I just cannot thank you guys enough. Sarah, thank you so much for the opportunity. Dr. Ireland, thanks for bringing substance to what I talk about here today as well. And for anybody out there that’s got any questions, whether it’s agriculture related, ranching related, energy related, don’t hesitate to reach out to these individuals or reach out me, and we’d be more than happy to get with you because these two people out here today making a difference and making an actual impact. In the world and everything we have whether it’s oil and gas and agriculture they’re both commodities so we have to work together. So thank you as always and we’ll see you again on another episode of The Crude Truth.
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